- 2001 FEB 20 -


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01-02-20          0700    Morning routine, worked on notes, and then left for the meeting with Supt. FRASER & Insp. LATHEM.

            The meeting started pretty much on time (0907) with all present as expected, including Supt. Lee FRASER, Insp. Andy LATHEM, S/Sgt. Vic GORMAN & Neil FRASER, and Cpl. Peter PURCHASE.  It started out on the footing that the file would be finished as of 01-02-28, however I quickly changed this agenda by showing them John GARSTANG’s email for the extension.  This was discussed for some time, as to what would be done and why, and I was told that a decision would be made if I was to stay or be replaced. 

            John GARSTANG called me on my cell phone part way through the meeting regarding the email from yesterday.  He asked that it not be taken as written in stone and is not to be acted upon directly, however, he did say that the memo had been written and was being forwarded for signing.  He felt that Vic GERDEN would sign it and the period would be extended.

            A lengthy discussion was undertaken regarding possible non-accident indicators, and I showed them the email from Jim BROWN, the short paragraph about the interference.  This created further lengthy discussion, particularly over how we would handle it.  There was opinion that BROWN’s credibility had been compromised.  There was also discussion over whether or not I had originally compromised his credibility a year ago by sending off the email.  Then there was discussion over how to go about the matter.  I presented the email that I propose sending to Dr. BROWN, however, it was not acceptable.  Lee FRASER suggested a face to face with BROWN & LATHEM to go over the AES and then to breach this question, with an immediate follow-up visit to Vic GERDEN to inform him of the actions.  However, after much discussion, it was finally agreed that I would send off the following message.  I ensured that this message was authorized by asking at least three times, each time Insp. LATHEM agreed.  I was to simply send:  ‘Please clarify your last paragraph of your message of 01-02-13.’

            Before arriving at this decision, considerable discussion was undertaken over the AES process, and the findings on the beads.  Reaction was generally positive, and the feeling was that we really should know what is going on regarding the message.

            Lee FRASER asked me a number of questions regarding possible ‘indicators’ of a criminal nature on the aircraft, and I elaborated on the four distinct locations of molten metal, and the high heat damage to the overhead ceiling tile at the forward doors.  This generated much discussion again.  At one point, Lee asked me directly why I thought the TSB wanted this matter to be a non-criminal matter, and I suggested that the AD’s would be of less value if this matter were an accident versus a criminal nature (safety versus security).  This became an important point, to be raised later.  We also mentioned possible locations and how a device could have been planted.  I told him of my experience in Zurich when the SR Technics member had opened the forward drop ceiling hatch and looked up in.  I explained its location and size, and Lee seemed to take heed of it, asking if LATHEM knew about it.  I told him that it was in my trip notes, which are on E&R.

            A trip around the table was made to ensure that there were no other concerns.  And then the meeting centred in on my notes.  Generally, Lee FRASER did most of the talking.  LATHEM advised that he had sent my material off to Lee, who had given it to Vic GORMAN to read, and he had arranged for eleven members up there to go through my notes, one hundred pages each.  And it is an understatement to say that they had concerns. 

            Lee pointed out the matter of the explosive wires, indicating that I had alluded to a conspiracy in which they had been covered up.  We went over that, with me advising that GARSTANG had told me to keep the matter quiet.  Several points were raised, and because I did not have the notes in front of me, I could not balance the argument.  It was made to seem that I was biased and alluding to a conspiracy.  The matter of the accident being non-criminal was raised, and again why I had the idea of a conspiracy or a cover-up.  (Later, I checked this note file in a word-search for “conspi” in trying to find “conspire” or “conspiracy”, and it only shows in this paragraph.  The word ‘cover’ as in ‘cover-up’ shows hundreds of time, but never as cover-up, etc.)  But it was stated that I allege in my notes or felt that there was a conspiracy to hide something or cover things up.  My problem is that things have not been fully examined, not that they have been covered up.  I don’t believe I have given a conspiracy theory, except possibly regarding the FAA testing of the materials on the aircraft years ago.  Lee asked about this, asking what we should have done about it.  I again suggested the FBI.  LATHEM told us that GERDEN was looking into it, and that he has a committee set up on the matter.  Generally, they all felt that I had stuck my foot in it clear to my neck and that I would have to answer to what I had written if I ever take a witness stand, and that my credibility is totally shot because of the details that I have included in my notes.  Their problem is how will the press use it when they obtain disclosure and take bits and pieces out of context. 

            Lee questioned why I had not put my notes into E&R on a routine basis, and I explained that it was because of my floor sources, that LATHEM had agreed to it during one of the earliest meetings.  Another reason is that E&R does not accept tables, which I use frequently.  He commented that had these notes been submitted routinely every week, they could have been read and the questionable parts addressed.  I asked if he meant editing my notes, and he said no, but to answer the questions raised in those notes and address them.  It seems we kept coming back to the explosive wires and the conspiracy, something that we never really looked directly at because no one could find the material in the stack of over 1000 pages.  The following is the material written for that matter, as taken directly from my notes, and I feel that it is sufficiently balanced on my part, providing adequate degree of explanation.

           00-10-07          John GARSTANG mentioned to me that the explosive detonation wires in room 114 are there but no one beyond a few people knows they are there.  Neither Boeing nor Swissair know of their existence.  I had noticed them last week when I took out the seat covers and seat cushions, and he advised that they had been found on the beach in the area of the crash, but that it is doubtful that they were involved in the crash.  He said that our members had suspected a local of illegal fishing by using explosives.  However, today he advised that neither Boeing nor Swissair have any knowledge that they were found in the crash area.  He said that Vic GERDEN had put a tight seal on knowledge of them, thus almost no one knows of their existence.  He advised that he would soon be contacting GERDEN to remind him that a report has to go in advising both companies of the existence of the wires.  Later in the afternoon, the four wire exhibits were photographed on roll #571 with a colour scale, 3-D scale, and tag as Exh #1-11273, a white wire, Exh #1-162 & Exh #1-384, coloured wires with tags attached, similar to wires seen at explosives sites, and Exh #1-634, a white wire with a blue plastic attachment that was tagged as a used fuse.  The items were left in room #114.

            It is obvious that Lee never read this section of the notes, and indeed he pointed out that the section that he had read was very dull and boring.  I pointed out to Lee that when you take 100 pages out of context, you would not get an accurate feel for the facts.  The members reading it know nothing of the environment or the participants involved.  This wasn’t accepted, and generally he said that he was very upset and disappointed with me.  The tone of the meeting most certainly was that I was at fault, that I had done something terribly wrong, that my credibility for this file had been shot, and Lee stated that I would not likely be involved in any further serious files.  In other words, I was in trouble, and they wanted to distance themselves from me as far as they could.  He asked if I would go through my notes and add clarifications to various areas that are particularly a problem.  I clarified that he did not want the material edited, that he wanted it clarified with additions to explain the follow-up details relating to the particular matter.  LATHEM then jumped into the conversation with a piece of paper, saying that he wanted the material edited out.  I questioned that, as did Lee FRASER.  LATHEM said that he wanted an edited version of the notes, with the personal material edited out.  He then produced a piece of paper that read:

 I, Sgt. T.C.JUBY, have reviewed all notes submitted by myself for filing as they relate to Operation Homage.  These notes reflect my personal theories and speculations.  They are not founded in fact nor is there any evidence to support them.

Subsequently, by my own free will and volition without duress, I freely admit that my personal beliefs do not reflect the factual information found within the area of my responsibility – that being the identification, photographing, physical matching and physical examination of evidence.

Further, I agree to review my notes and to edit the non-factual information, knowing full well that the original notes will be retained on file.  I will also take training to remedy this issue to ensure it is not repeated in the future.

T.C. JUBY, Sgt.                                                          Witness  LATHEM


I added in the line:  In other words, a second set of notes minus the personal material.

            Several things struck me as important.  I have not had a chance to review the notes, and they knew it.  I had told LEE when questioned about the explosive wires that I didn’t remember what I had written, that there was two & one/half year’s worth of daily notes involved.  Besides that, I had submitted the notes clearly stating that they were not complete and required additions, the term being 80% finished.  These additions include the trip notes, and several other areas including insulation blanket numbers and AES wire numbers, much of which has been marked for additions.  These would be done of course with a note to indicate when and how they were done.  However, I was ordered in December to submit them regardless of this fact, punishable by suspension without pay by the CO of ‘H’ Div.  And I certainly have not had a chance since submitting them to review them or make the required additions.  As for the rest of the lines in LATHEM’s paper, I was sitting in a room with two senior officers and two senior NCOs (one of which is in an Acting Inspector’s position) for nearly two hours all telling me that I had done a terrible deed and tearing apart any response that I gave.  Neil FRASER took notes, something that I will be asking Lee for a copy of.  We spent so much time dwelling on the editing methods that I really forgot what was in the previous lines.  And it kept occurring to me that they are asking me to perform an illegal act.  I have been asked to change my notes by deleting my personal observations and feelings that were written at the time to describe the event and the atmosphere.  I knew that Karl CHRISTIANSEN had undergone something similar, and that he had a ruling from a Force source to the effect that notes are to reflect what you see, hear, do, feel, etc at that particular moment as a refresher to your memory at a later date.  But I knew that if I didn’t sign, another paper was likely to surface ordering me to do so by punishment of suspension or some other similar thing.  As for refusing outright, or getting up and leaving the meeting, I had just recently received a 1004 for that very infraction.  So I felt I had no option.  But I kept asking if this was correct procedure, if it was legal, to which I was told ‘yes’ by Insp. LATHEM.  However, I did notice that Lee FRASER didn’t say anything, and indeed gave what I thought was a questioning look towards LATHEM about the matter, particularly when the idea of editing out the material was first forcibly put forward by LATHEM.  I really don’t think that Lee knew that this was coming, and he never said anything more about it after that.  At one point, I said that I was of the understanding that I could include all of this questioned material in my notes, as it was to include anything that reflected upon the matter at hand, including the atmosphere during which the matter occurred.  Insp. LATHEM made the comment ‘Oh yeh, I’ve heard that one before’.  On signing, I added the one line to clarify that he indeed wanted material removed to create a second set of notes.  Insp. LATHEM then provided a photocopy after saying that he hoped to be able to get the edited version through ‘Access to Information Section’ and later disclosure if it went that far.  I now have to check to see if I have been asked to do an illegal act, something that I am very suspicious of. 

            That pretty much ended the session, and we then went on to the assessment, Lee and Neil leaving the room.  Peter had left prior to getting into the discussion over the notes.  Insp. LATHEM provided a form 1004 for the notes, again indicating the misdeed that I had performed regarding what I have included in those notes, and an interim assessment for the period since GORMAN left.  Then the assessment by GORMAN was read to me, and I was asked to sign each as I received the forms.  Discussion was nil, and the forms were prepared beforehand.  I now have to supply my comments.  On completion of that, I asked about the 66-lieu days off and was told that there was nothing that could be done about it.  Neither felt that they could do anything, as they had not known about it while it was being incurred.  The comment was made that Officers don’t get overtime either.  I then asked about the notes that are in GORMAN’s E&R notes regarding discipline with respect to me, and he said that he was not prepared to do anything about them, that they are there and that he will not remove them.

            On returning to the hangar, the following email was sent out to Dr. BROWN, with a copy then going to LATHEM.

From: "Tom Juby" <>

To: "Jim BROWN" <>

Subject: Re: Email of 01-FEB-14      Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:16:13 -0400


Please clarify your last paragraph of your message of 01-02-13.

Thanks.    Tom

            A read receipt was requested, and a copy of it was sent to Insp. LATHEM as follows:

From: Tom Juby    PRIVATE       To:       Andy Lathem

Date:   2/20/01 2:36PM

Subject:           Message to Dr. BROWN

 As requested, the following message was forwarded to Dr. JIM BROWN this afternoon at 14:16 hrs. 


Please clarify your last paragraph of your message of 01 FEB 13.

Thanks.     Tom

A read receipt was automatically requested, so I will know when he receives it.

            Checked the email later because I worked late tonight on notes, and the following came in as a reply from Dr. BROWN, with an automatic read reply request, and my original message at the bottom as normal.

From: "Brown, Jim" <>

To: "''" <>

Subject: RE: Email of 01-FEB-14          Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:55:28 -0500

Hi Tom

1st:         I've been misled repeatedly by TSBC about Swissair Fl111 with respect to onboard emergency flares (number, types, locations). Only when confronted with info from other sources was their presence finally acknowledged and then only the existence of flares under doors in emergency shute/raft compartments (Other sources indicate airliners also carry flares accessible by the flight and cabin crew; TSBC says no). I'd like to believe them, but experience makes me a skeptic. 

2nd:         My draft report has been heavily criticized because of comments on anomalous levels of magnesium in arc melt exhibits and possible reasons (my opinions). Some comments were justified, and I've revised them. However, mention of the element Mg, presence of any pyrotechnic on-board sources and even the possibility that an enriched environment of magnesium existed in the vicinity of the wiring at the time of electrical arcing has come under considerable criticism.  I have thus added a disclaimer that views and opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily state or reflect those of the TSBC.  

regards     Jim

            I suggest that this should be classed as most important material. 



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